Episode 20

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Published on:

3rd Mar 2025

Caring presence - with Andries Baart and Guus Timmerman

What does it mean to 'practise presence' in caring for others? How did the theory of presence develop from research on everyday care practice? And what are the professional, organisational and political implications of presence theory and relational caring?

These are some of the questions we explore in this episode, with Andries Baart and Guus Timmerman.

Andries is Extraordinary Professor in the field of ageing and generational dynamics at North-West University in South Africa. He is also a former visiting professor at the Department of Psychiatry of the University Medical Centre Utrecht, and Professor Emeritus of the University of Humanistic Studies, Tilburg University, and Catholic Theological University Utrecht – all in the Netherlands. Andries has been one of the leading figures in the development of care ethics in the Netherland and in 2004, with others, he founded Stichting Presentie - the Presence Foundation.

Guus has worked as a care ethicist and qualitative researcher at the Presence Foundation since 2014 and has published widely on relational caring and presence in healthcare and social work, and on the methodology of qualitative research. Guus has undertaken research on the care and practical wisdom of general practitioners at the sick- and death-beds of their patients; the life-world of people in Rotterdam who use the bed-bath-bread provision for irregular migrants and rejected asylum seekers; and what it is like to be a person with advanced dementia. His current research is on narrative accountability in care for older persons: giving insight to relevant interlocutors through stories.

Andries and Guus have collaborated on a new book, Relational Caring and Presence Theory in Health Care and Social Work: a Care-Ethical Perspective, which was published in December last year by Policy Press, and which forms the main focus of our conversation in this episode.

We discuss the following topics in this episode:

Andries' personal and professional journey to his work in care ethics (03:45)

Guus' personal and professional journey (09:15)

The life, work and influence of Frans Vosman (14:20)

The aims of Andries' and Guus' new book (19:55)

The key elements of relational caring and presence theory (23:35)

The origins of presence theory in Andries' study of outreach pastoral care (27:11)

The religious inspiration and secular relevance of presence theory, and the importance of 'exposure' in practising presence (31:18)

The theoretical roots of presence theory (34:53)

Comparing the presence approach with Joan Tronto's five-phase caring process (43:34)

The distinctiveness of the presence approach to care practice (50:07)

The relationship between presence theory and care ethics (46:55)

The organisational implications of practising presence and relational caring (52:55)

The implications of presence theory for thinking about professionalism (55:40)

How realistic is practising presence in the context of everyday care practice? (59:30)

The political implications of presence theory (01:03:30)

The work of the Presence Foundation (01:07:05)

Andries' and Guus' current work and future plans (01:09:15)

Writers, theorists and activists mentioned in the episode

Frans Vosman

Carlo Leget (see Episode 8)

Inge van Nistelrooij (see Episode 17)

Theo Beemer

Henk Manschot

Marian Verkerk

Carol Gilligan

Joan Tronto

Berenice Fisher

Nell Noddings

Sara Ruddick

Selma Sevenhuijsen

Annelies van Heijst

Maurice Hamington

Virginia Held

Daniel Engster

Sophie Bourgault

Michael Slote

Marian Barnes

Charles de Foucauld

Madeleine Delbrêl 

Dorothy Day

Jürgen Habermas 

Axel Honneth

Emmanuel Levinas

Martin Buber

Franz Rosenzweig

Jacques Derrida

Hans-George Gadamer

Ludwig Wittgenstein

Michel de Certeau

Henri Lefebvre

Thomas Biebricher

Isabell Lorey

Sharon Welch

Sandra Harding

Alastair MacIntyre

Charles Taylor

Paul Ricoeur

Gabriel Marcel

Other links

The Presence Foundation (Stichting Presentie)

The Worker-Priest movement

Catholic Worker movement

Frankfurt School

Discourse analysis

Peeters 'Ethics of Care' series

Part-Time for All: A Care Manifesto by Jennifer Nedelsky and Tom Malleson

For a transcript of this episode, follow this link to the Careful Thinking Substack.

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About the Podcast

Careful Thinking
Exploring ideas about care
At some point in our lives, we will all have the experience of caring for another person - or of being cared for ourselves. But what exactly is ‘care’, and what do we mean by ‘good’ care? How do our beliefs, identities, and the social, cultural and political contexts in which we live, shape our experience of caring or being cared for? And how can ideas, theories, and the findings from research, help us to think more care-fully – and to care more thoughtfully?

Careful Thinking explores these and similar questions, inspired by a belief that thinking critically about care can both deepen our understanding and improve the everyday practice of care. In each episode of the podcast, you'll hear an in-depth conversation with a researcher, writer or practitioner at the cutting edge of current thinking about care.

If you would like to give us your feedback, or suggest a guest or a topic for a future episode, you can get in touch at carefulthinkingpodcast@gmail.com. And you can leave comments on episodes and join in the discussion at https://carefulthinking.substack.com.

About your host

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Martin Robb

Martin Robb is Professor of Care Ethics and Culture at The Open University (UK), where his research has focused on questions of identity, relationships, and care. He is the author of 'Men, Masculinities and the Care of Children: Images, Ideas and Identities' (2020) and the co-editor of 'Men and Loss: New Perspectives on Bereavement, Grief and Masculinity' (2025).